Pay Per Callers Show - Yohan Perez and Neil Rubin, Founders of Rank Media Agency

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Learn how to dominate a competitive market and why you need to create long-term assets with valuable content from Yohan Perez and Neil Rubin, founders of Rank Media Agency.

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Show Notes
  • Yohan Perez and Neil Rubin, Co Founders of Rank Media Agency.
  • Founded in 2010 and based in Montreal with 35+ Employees.
  • Presented at more conferences than any other call network.
  • Clients like Ritz Carlton, Sotheby's and MontBlanc.
  • Focused too much time and energy on creating niche technology.
  • Creating and building branded properties and how to monetize and optimize traffic for ROI.
  • Build assets and create content and use the right tools to control and mitigate risk.
  • High quality content and targeted conversion paths that are relevant to the user experience and their goals / needs / wants.
  • Don’t underestimate the value of high-quality inbound content!
  • Dig into your analytics to understand more about your audience demographics and their behavior.
  • It’s a massive industry with lots of cross-selling opportunities and loyal consumers.
  • Very competitive to get into the 65+ demographic space. Not a lot of room for new players.
  • Acquiring an established website with traffic / data and optimizing it for conversions and calls.
  • Data and Analytics is the most important consideration.
  • Working with calls eliminates a lot of the fraud and quality issues vs data and form fills.
  • Calls are immediate and you get feedback a lot quicker. This helps you manage campaigns and clients even better.
  • You need to stay on top of what is happening with your calls, conversion rates, average durations, call results, etc.
  • Listen to call recordings! Every team member should listen to calls.
  • Go hyperlocal into your segment.
  • Financial assistance space has a massive market and many cross-selling opportunities.
  • Debt and Insurance is never going away.
  • Play the long-game and develop a strategy for long-term success in your niche.
  • Learn more and work with Yohan and Neil at www.RankMediaAgency.com

About Rank Media Agency
Rank Media Agency is a versatile team of developers, designers and marketing professionals that helps clients navigate the fast-paced digital landscape to effectively grow businesses and build-up brands. Our integrated approach allows us to use tech and creative marketing to build up your brand, generate leads and dominate the space within your vertical.

Website: www.RankMediaAgency.com
Email: info@rankmediaagency.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/rank-media-agency

Yohan's LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/yohan-perez-80883731
Neil's LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/neil-rubin-b498b84

Episode Transcript

Adam Young:
Welcome to the Pay Per Callers Show. My name is Adam Young, the founder of Ringba. And today I have special guests Yohan Perez and Neil Rubin. They are the co-founders of Rank Media Agency, located in Montreal, Québec. It was founded in 2010, had over 35 employees, and represents some of the biggest brands in the world like Ritz-Carlton, Sotheby's, and Montblanc. So thank you guys very much for joining me on the show today.

Yohan Perez:
Hey, Adam. Thanks for having us.

Neil Rubin:
Thanks, Adam. How's it going?

Adam Young:
So I'd like to understand your story. Where did you guys come from? How did you meet and get together? And where was Rank Media born?

Yohan Perez:
Yeah, so in my early days, I owned a call center. We did everything from surveys for the government all the way to selling timeshare. Neil was actually an employee back then. And I can't say I remember much about him, but we connected later on in our life, so yeah. I think that the gist of it is I've always been in a function of marketing. It was telemarketing back in the day. And we just got very innovative very fast and realized that technology was kind of the light that I was looking for. And we took the call center aspect, we digitized it in a way that we were one of the first chat intercept guys when websites were first coming out. People had questions. We had agents on the phone that were able to select that sweater that you wanted for the price that you wanted and the material that you wanted, and kind of was cross-training my agents back in the day to do both voice calls as well as chat intercepts. And it worked really well. Neil has a diverse background. I'll let him kind of go through that.

Neil Rubin:
Yeah. So, yeah, it was funny. So I wasn't even 16 at the time. I was-- what am I, 21 now? So that's about five years ago. So yeah. It wasn't a long-lasting job, but that is where we met. And then we kind of reconnected a bunch of years later. So I've been in the performance space for quite a while. And ironically, before that, I was in the insurance space. I worked for AIG back in the day. And yeah, I had-- we'd signed a pretty big client they were doing some work with and he said, "Hey, do you know anything about this call stuff?" So I came in and we started to look at the pay-per-call space. And slowly but surely, we've grown it. And we just closed our biggest quarter of a year ever. So that's definitely something good to build on going into 2019.

Adam Young:
Congratulations, guys. And what were some of the challenges you had when you first started working together?

Yohan Perez:
Yeah. So we were very big into creating a technology around the insurance space. And although that can be extremely profitable, I think it was ambitious as well. I think we needed to get our feet wet a little bit more, buy the millions of dollars of medias that we have and then kind of just make our decisions from there. But I think we went down this technological path. And we really spent a lot of money and a lot of time and, most important, a lot of cycles and energy. And we didn't get very far. Some of those things we still use in our conversion files today, but for the most part, I think that that was our biggest initial mistake, right?

Neil Rubin:
That's for sure. Yeah. I mean, it's tempting. A lot of people get tempted by that when they first get into a space which really is technology-driven. I mean [laughter], I don't have to tell you that. I think another-- not mistake, but something that we didn't know initially how hard it would be, would be our own assets. You can't just build a website and everyone comes to it. So Rank Media's real expertise is SEO, hence the name. So it took us a while. It took us a few years. And I'm not kidding. It took us a few years to finally not only get a handle on our own properties, but to optimize them and to figure out a way to monetize all the traffic. And that's the reason we just closed our biggest year is because I feel we're at this step-- we hit that first step. There's many, and we hit that first one. Of course, we made an acquisition last year which proved to be very successful. But I don't think we realized the time it would take. And I think [inaudible] advice [inaudible] out there is that if you really want to succeed in this space, it's important that you provide something different, some added value, and owning your own property to managing your own media; being the cook in the kitchen versus letting other people cook for you is a very important lesson that we learned. And it took us a few years.

Adam Young:
I love what you guys just said there. First and foremost, I completely agree with you. I've owned a lot of businesses and been in performance marketing a long time myself. And selling technology and building technology for people has been the greatest challenge of my career. It's the hardest thing I've ever had to sell and build and manage. And so I respect your honesty there, and I think you're absolutely right. A lot of people get into a space. They start to see some success and they're like, "We'll build our own technology." And that can be a great way to burn all your capital with no results. And so I completely agree with you there. And then also, I loved what you just said about how it took a lot of time to really understand to do the SEO and how much time and effort it took to actually start building these assets. And I think it's something that people don't really consider when they get started, is that it's a lot of work to build a digital media agency. It's not simple. It requires a lot of sleepless nights. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure you guys went through trials, tribulations, working late nights, weekends, all that stuff.

Yohan Perez:
We still do [laughter].

Neil Rubin:
I remember one morning-- I take public transit to work because I'm cool like that. And basically, I see on my phone some kind of weird notification. And I think it was early. I called up Yohan and I go, "Our sites are down. They're all down. All of them." He's like, "What? What?" And then, it was just a little tiny thing. It was a server migration. And it was a hiccup. It took an extra hour, but you lose years off your life when your entire livelihood suddenly is like-- it's, again, that is technology. There was something with Google. There was some kind of-- it wasn't identifying something properly. Long story short, you deal with that a lot. You really have to be on top of your devs, on top of those guys and make sure that things are solid. But those are some scares that we've had in the past.

Yohan Perez:
And to your point, you mentioned-- you reiterated something that we said. Building versus using technology that's already out there, proven, and tried in its own component, vertical, or having its own raison d'être, if you will, it's crucial to what you do. So back in the day when we had call centers, we used to do direct marketing on TV, radio, prints. And if only we had a technology like Ringba back in the day, it would have served us right because back in the day it was all call-center based. You weren't able to [inaudible] some of those calls. You weren't able to understand who monetizes best for you. You weren't able to capture it other than with a human. So if you did a great TV commercial and it hit 15,000 calls and your call center that you're overflowing to was too busy, you lost the calls versus rerouting them. And I guess, to your point, today we don't want to build technology. We want to build assets online. We want to build great content. We want to build control. And I think we want to let the guys like Ringba and other technologies that we use help us mitigate loss. And that's really what it comes down to.

Adam Young:
Well, let's talk about that for a second. What are some of the lessons you can share with our audience about actually building assets? And then let's also talk about the types of assets you guys build. Without revealing too much, can we get an overview of some of the assets you have now that are really producing well for you and then maybe some tips and trick around how you guys actually built those assets?

Yohan Perez:
Yeah. So we have over 75 properties that we cater to and nurture to, mostly around health, Medicare, and financial space. I think what we have going for us is the way that we bring in the clients. In other words, it's the type of articles that are relevant to the conversion, right? So you're going to build an article that talks about the differences in Medicare today, talk about the donor pool, explain it well. People that are researching it at that level, if you're providing good, communitive information for them and they get to learn on your site, the truth of the matter is that they'll be more comfortable to maybe give us a call or fill out a ballot, versus you trying to just hook them in somehow through the internet and get them into a quick-call path and they still don't know, really, what they want. I guess, to answer your question, the technologies that we have today that have really worked for us, it's really our conversion paths. So it's the registration paths, it's the way that we gather the leads, it's the ease of use, and it's the way that we attract the people either through paid search and/or organic search.

Neil Rubin:
I can't add anything to that [laughter].

Adam Young:
Well, I think that was a great overview. And when it comes to your specific audience, which is health and older people, I'm sure you find that the more quality the content, the greater the conversion rate.

Neil Rubin:
Right. The only thing I was going to add was that people underestimate content quite a bit. We invested heavily last quarter, and our plan for 2019 is really stack on the content side. And from what I've learned-- remember, I'm not an SEO expert. I don't come from that world, but I've obviously learned quite a bit. Just banging out content is one thing, but good content ranks better. Google likes that better. They see that it's more relevant. You know, Google's a relevancy engine at the end of the day. And don't underestimate content. Listen, if you can't write it yourself, which most people don't do, you've got to hire people to write it. You've got to make sure your content is fresh. And you wouldn't believe the rate, specifically in the over-65 space, in the Medicare space. So when you combine that with understanding the demographics of that over 65, and also the way in which they use technology-- remember, we're kind of going into the last generation of the over 65s who are still not so tech-savvy. So you're seeing a lot more calls from iPads because they use their iPads like all day long. And if it's not an iPad, it's likely a desktop. So you don't see that trend in the people 18 to 40, to 50. They're using their cell phones. So you get a lot of mobile-type calls, and like Yohan said, the paths there will be more direct from an [app?]. We see that more likely. But in the over-65, we see people consuming more content, spending longer times on a site. You have to understand your analytics to be able to cater the type of content and the type of paths to each type of demographic.

Adam Young:
And why did you guys specifically choose to focus on these older verticals?

Neil Rubin:
So, I mean, there's a lot of reasons. I'll give you a good one. So the over-65 space, obviously, if you think about it-- the population is a fraction compared to the 18-to-64 space. We all passed grade-three math, so we know that. But the thing about the over-65 space is that in the States-- I mean, we're from Canada, so it's a little different. But in the States, there's a lot of marketing that goes to attract that age group because you're getting to a place where you're taking more prescription medication. And just by default of your age, you need different things. It's a subspace called the DME space, durable medical equipment. So it's people who might need back braces, who might need that chair thingy that goes up your stairs. It's a massive industry, and there's a lot of cross-sell opportunities. Our clients are just-- the value of a 65-, 66-year-old in terms of your long-tail value is something like triple or quadruple what a U-65, an under-65 client would be. Especially Open Enrollment time is when everyone can switch their health insurance. It's six weeks. They're more apt to do it because they're more apt to shop then. They're a shopping generation. And the generation's now, of course, all the younger kids, but people into their 40s and 50s, they shop. People over 65, they're not as keen to suddenly, it's Open Enrollment, they're going to go switch. So when you have a client, you have them longer, in the over-65 space. And you can sell them more. You can upsell. You can cross-sell. So that's why we put a lot of efforts into that space, because it's a lot more profitable, and for our clients, the long-term revenues, it's much larger.

Adam Young:
And so just to recap, you guys are essentially building assets, putting quality content on those assets that people actually want to consume in your demographic. You've chosen a demographic which is extremely high-value, and you focus on that demographic. And then, once you have a customer that likes your content and trusts your brand, you continue to upsell that customer and cross-sell that customer on all sorts of various products and services.

Neil Rubin:
Yeah. We do, sometimes, but our clients also do that, and we differentiate the two. So the clients that do that pay a bit more because they know they need the customer. At all costs, they need that customer, versus some clients who just want to go sell that client Medicare, that's it. You have different kinds. But pretty much, you just nailed it. Yeah.

Adam Young:
So what are some of the ways that you guys created a competitive advantage inside of this 65-plus demographic space?

Neil Rubin:
Yeah. So, I mean, it's a very competitive space. And just to give you a little differentiator, there are so many people, like I mentioned, in 18 to 64. There's room for a lot more players. There's a finite amount. Yes, it grows. They say the number is 10,000 a day is how many [inaudible] people turn 65. But it is much more competitive to get into that space. So Yohan went on this quest. We were going to find this company. We were going to buy this company. We didn't know what the company was, but we knew we were planting seeds and building up these properties and they were starting to get traction, but SEO, it takes time. So we knew we had to make a leapfrog ahead and decided as a company, we were going to make that investment. And if the opportunity was right, we were going to look to make an acquisition last year. It was actually a bit longer. So Yohan actually located-- it's like a diamond in the rough, met this guy. And we started to get in a relationship, and he was explaining more about his websites. And really, it was perfect because he was looking to retire. He was an SEO expert. This was a side thing that brought him some revenue, so we actually leased the sites for about a year, year and a half, did our own thing to it and changed the funnel paths, changed the conversion paths, just all of, of course, all of the design and UI to UX-- everything about it. And we finally pulled the trigger and made the acquisition. I mean, these things exploded. I mean, we're talking 600% growth over a year. And I'm not saying that was from like $5. It was doing okay, but it just shows that having the expertise in the space, even on an acquisition, can really change your business. And that was all this guy.

Yohan Perez:
Yeah, so the value add was really being able to look at the diamond in the rough and say, "You know what? Structurally, it's actually a good structure. It's been around for over seven years. It's got a slate of different sites that we were able to rehash or improve." And it took us a while, but as soon as we started redoing the creatives, as we kickstarted doing the paths, I think that we were able to see the light. We made the acquisition, and from that point on, we went gangbusters. We really invested heavily into bringing in some quality content. I remember when I first started my career in this space, someone said if you're able to bring communitive value, you're going to win. And the truth of the matter is that's really what it all comes down to. If someone is doing a search and they get a clear answer from your site, if you're able to cross-market them after, that path's just going to be that much easier. And that's it.

Adam Young:
Let's talk about that acquisition for a moment here. What was the process you went through to actually find some of these websites to potentially acquire them? And then, what does an acquisition process for a website look like?

Neil Rubin:
Well, we're not going to tell you exactly how we found it because we're trying to find some more, of course, at the moment.

Adam Young:
Well, that's fine. I just mean from a high-level, general sense.

Neil Rubin:
[crosstalk]. Of course. The most important thing, literally-- really, all that matters is data. We spent literally a year analyzing, re-analyzing, second-guessing, third-guessing ourselves, to look at every possible data piece that they had from the past seven years, and then modeling what we could do and modeling our cost versus our return, modeling the different lifts we could get, the different predictors for Open Enrollment, the different downtimes versus the uptimes, the different amount of costs you have to put in for content, for redesign. We had to get all of the elements together because it's not a $10 acquisition. So I would say that it's data and analytics. It took us-- I mean, as an owner, you have a lot to take care of, and we do quite a lot. But on the day to day, I like to be involved as much as I can. But when it comes to analytics, that's my specialty. I must have spent hundreds of hours just analyzing all the data I could because, at the end of the day, I trust my skill set in that arena. And even though what we projected didn't necessarily happen in the order we projected it in, we made the right call. And listen, there was one day it's like, "All the traffic's gone. Where did it go?" It's like, "What happened?" And then we applied the work that we do and we actually fixed it and turned it around, and it peaked right at Open Enrollment. It was a very fortunate situation. We had a lot of sleepless nights, of course, as I mentioned before. But yeah.

Yohan Perez:
I think what Neil is saying-- I'm sorry to interrupt.

Neil Rubin:
No, no.

Yohan Perez:
But I think it was all algorithmic changes in the other search engines. And it came three months before Open Enrollment. We literally lost a big chunk of our traffic. But again, this is what we do, and we were able to fix it by just restructuring the sites, getting smarter about demands, getting smarter about the way that you're going to structure your content, and yeah. We were able to fix it. To give you an idea on how we found these sites, honestly, we spoke to every single smaller publisher that we knew, that we knew had maybe a lot of interest in some of the upcoming spaces and whether that was solar or EDU. We were able to see that they were kind of neglecting some of their web properties on Medicare and health, and they were also doing the wrong things. So again, we were able to identify that, speak to these guys, make some acquisitions. We're on to our second one very soon.

Adam Young:
That's amazing, guys. And I think it's important to note that when looking for an acquisition, you're not always looking for something that's perfect. In fact, you're looking for something that's far from perfect but has the right meat and potatoes. It has the right signals that you can build upon it, the right foundation, maybe almost like buying a building that has a great foundation and structure but hasn't had any of the interior done. The windows aren't put on yet. Maybe it's not even wired, right? And then you get to take over that project and really add your skill set in there and improve it. So if our viewers out there are thinking about acquiring a website, and they see one and they're like, "Man, this isn't perfect. It's not right. Maybe they don't have everything in order." That actually might be the perfect target for an acquisition if you do your research on it.

Yohan Perez:
Sure, yeah. Because if you give them the time for them to fix those problems, you'll pay the price, right? So--

Adam Young:
Exactly.

Yohan Perez:
--if you don't acquire it yourself [crosstalk].

Adam Young:
So let's talk about calls for a minute. What do you guys use right now as a strategy to find more buyers for your phone calls? How do you interact with your buyers on a regular basis? What are some of the pitfalls of actually working in the trenches in the pay per call space?

Yohan Perez:
Yeah, so the one thing that I will say, and one of the reasons that we really chose to focus on calls, is it eliminates a lot of the BS, right? It eliminates a lot of the fraud that happens in data. You can be selling someone data and it'll take them 30 days of them buying from you every single day to realize that you sold them something that was sold to another dozen people. The reality with calls is that you stand behind the way that media block. You stand in the way that the calls are coming in through your organic sites. If you're that confident, you're going to put your confidence into, I guess, a time span. So we sell calls at 30, 60, and 120 seconds, depending. If we didn't do our job correctly, then you're going to be able to prequalify that person right off the bat, right?

Neil Rubin:
100%.

Yohan Perez:
What was the other question?

Neil Rubin:
Well, to kind of expand on that, in terms of managing clients and getting clients, because of what Yohan said, which is really the crux of what calls are, is that they're immediate. Someone's on the phone. You're not calling them back, telling them like, "I'll talk to you later." It's they're on the phone at that moment. You get a lot-- the feedback loop's a lot quicker. So you could have clients saying, "These calls are awful. What are you sending me within a half an hour?" Or the reverse. So I truly believe that a good sales process and a good account management process is really a big differentiator. We have a very aggressive sales team, and we also have an equally aggressive prospecting team. So we basically have guys, and we're using different CRMs and different softwares and we kind of integrate it together to make sure that our sales guys have enough fresh leads to go out to and pitch. And we can obviously track that with Salesforce-type CRM, but it's constant. It's constantly fresh. It's constant.

And these guys, our sales guys, interact really well with the account management team, and they are on top of calls. They don't wait. They won't go a half an hour without knowing exactly what the conversions are, the average durations; without knowing exactly if it's a quality issue, if it's a routing issue. You have to be on top of that. If you're in the calling space and you think you're going to come in and broker a few calls here and there and not check on the client, you literally won't have a client for more than 48 hours because the amount of feedback that you're going to be getting and need to give, and the feedback loop with-- because you can change things like that. I mean, I'm sure you must see this daily. There's tiny tweaks you can make in Ringba, tiny tweaks you can make in your system that you might not catch, and suddenly it's a disaster. So you have to be on top of these things because someone's on the phone. You slip in the data lead and it messes up, all that person knows is that they filled in their information, pressed Submit, and it messes up after that and that person's already gone and went to lunch. The person's on the phone. It's a live human. It took a long time to get to this point, for technology and media to get to a point where it's instant. So you have to be really on top of your clients.

Yohan Perez:
And we're very old-school. Don't forget I come from a telemarketing background. I believe picking up the phone and doing it old-school, it works. You build a relationship with someone. And like I said, it's not the type of product where you can have a dozen question marks. It's I'm going to send you the calls. They're live. You'll know instantly whether or not we can do it and be safe. So yeah, our sales team's pretty aggressive on the old traditional ways.

Adam Young:
And I'm sure that team listens to a lot of phone calls constantly, too, right?

Neil Rubin:
Thousands. I do. I listen to thousands of calls a month.

Yohan Perez:
Yeah. When we started a media-buying campaign, and depending what you put into that basket, maybe some of the keywords were-- I don't know. People are looking for the Obamacare helpline. People are looking for things that are irrelevant. You'll know it by listening to a couple of phone calls. To answer your question, we have a QC department that does it. The salespeople do it, and the media buyers. Will someone pick up some calls just to see why am I not converting? Something must be wrong. And per those conversations, I thought I was calling the Obamacare health line or customer service line. And right away, you're able to alter your [crosstalk].

Neil Rubin:
Yeah. So that's just a negative match. It allows us to do a lot of different filtering. So it's key. You don't know that for data leads if you just send someone 100 data leads. You won't know. You won't know for a while, until you get some feedback from-- hopefully, it's that client, their client. You won't get feedback. So you need really to be on top of it or you're going to lose clients quickly.

Adam Young:
And I think that's amazing advice. I talk to a lot of our clients and we have a lot of people that are new to the pay-per-call space and are trying to build a business in it, and the number one thing I tell them is listen to the call recordings so that you can hear what the customers are saying, the feedback on keywords, like you guys just mentioned, and what the call centers are doing. Sometimes agents are cherry-picking, or they're not trained very well or aren't handling the calls properly. And so the first place I go when a customer asks us for help is the call recordings. Listen to a few call recordings. See what's going on. You never know. Maybe the buyer has technology issues, can't hear what's going on. Maybe their agents don't know their script properly or don't know that the calls are coming from Google AdWords or something of that nature. There's an endless list of reasons why things can go wrong, but what I find is that the people who are having issues in our space are the ones that aren't listening to call recordings and aren't putting in that work. And it's a lot of work. Don't get me wrong. But it's just massively educational to sit there and listen to the calls, and sometimes hilarious.

Neil Rubin:
Often hilarious.

Yohan Perez:
Sometimes--

Neil Rubin:
It can be very sad as well, but often hilarious.

Adam Young:
So guys, what do you think some of the biggest opportunities are going to be this year outside of what you're currently focused on?

Yohan Perez:
On a vertical basis?

Adam Young:
Just in general. I mean, we have a new, fresh year. The space is growing. We just came back from Affiliate Summit, and we noticed that there were like 300% more meat market tables that were involved in calls. There were more booths that were involved in calls. We had hundreds of people turn out for both of the parties we threw. I mean, the space is growing. And so what I'm asking is where are some areas that our listeners can go look at and research and find new opportunities in?

Yohan Perez:
Yeah, so the traditional shows, Affiliate Summit, LeadsCon-- I think that still works, but if I had to give advice to your audience, it would be go hyper-local into your segment. So that means that if you're in the health space, you're not necessarily going to find all your partners and buyers at those shows. But you will find them at associate-- shows that represent the entire industry as a whole. You may want to listen, really, into some of the broadcasting that people are doing in and around that space. And offer your knowledge. Become either a guest speaker in some of these unique shows or become a guest writer. So I think there's a lot of opportunities going not necessarily where everybody travels to, but going into some of these pocket shows or pocket associations and getting to know that industry from the back door, if you will.

Adam Young:
And that's advice you guys live by. Neil, you're one of the most-booked speakers at any trade show for the pay per call space, right?

Neil Rubin:
That is correct. Yeah, yeah. It's true. I get a little shy up there sometimes. No, it's the opposite. I'm often not-- I'm not [inaudible] with Canadian jokes because it's ironic that Canadian company is in the health space, so we kind of just say, "We don't buy the product. We just sell it." Because it's free and all that. So yeah, I think, to that point, yeah. We do speak quite a bit at different conferences. And just to go back to your question, so I also think from a vertical perspective, I think we identified the financial spaces, financial assistant spaces last year. We're not the first to identify it. We just said it's something I think we're going to be comfortable in. It represents a lot of cross-selling opportunities. So we've been playing pretty aggressively in that space as well. So in the tax space, credit card, unsecured debt space, there's one-- I mean, listen. You've got to look at verticals that aren't going away. Debt is never going away, and health insurance is never going away. So as long as there are people, there'll be those two things. So we obviously like to focus on large verticals and also verticals where we think we can carve out a little niche. I think we're getting more comfortable with the understanding of the financial assistant space. We're building up some properties as well there, always looking for some acquisitions, which, as Yohan said, we're working on another one at the moment. So we're going to follow the same path and also apply all the lessons that we learn. So if I had to say to people out there, I think the financial services space looks good for what we want to do, but everyone's a little different. Some people have different backgrounds so they might lean towards EDU. They might lean towards different types of technologies. But from a vertical perspective, I think it's safe.

Yohan Perez:
There's also the mentality of the long game, right? To all the media buyers listening, it's fantastic to be able to put yourself a good media-buying campaign and make a good vig on it. And you'll be very happy, but if you intend to stay in this space, the long game to us is building and buying some of these other properties and truly, once again, giving this community that's looking for your research, looking for your data, looking for your answers, give them some true, easy, bite-sized ways to kind of get answers. Once you do, you're playing that long game. And you've got to mix it up with some media-buying, because you're not going to be able to get everything you want out of that active organic space. But I think the opportunity is really to plant the seeds for the long run.

Adam Young:
Well, thanks, guys. I really appreciate you taking the time to join me on the show. If people want to do business with Rank Media, how do they get a hold of you guys?

Neil Rubin:
Well, we're actually rebranding this year. So very soon, we'll be launching Rank Networks. We've been planning it for about a year. I think we mentioned when we met back, a little while back. So it's something we're very excited about. So we'll be launching a website soon and our new brand.

Yohan Perez:
Yeah, for the time being, RankMediaAgency.com. Get a hold of us and take it from there.

Adam Young:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, guys. I appreciate your time.

Yohan Perez:
Thank you, sir.

Neil Rubin:
Thanks, Adam.

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